The wheel [migration] has been spinning and spinning and spinning. Wouldn't it be nice to imagine a world where that circle stops spinning in that crazy way? Because that's a huge wheel that's crushing people's lives, real people's lives, families.

The wheel [migration] has been spinning and spinning and spinning. Wouldn't it be nice to imagine a world where that circle stops spinning in that crazy way? Because that's a huge wheel that's crushing people's lives, real people's lives, families.

It's not so simple to just walk into the desert and cleanse your soul like some new age, snap your fingers, it's all done.

Immigration is a kind of pilgrimage. That's the way I see it. Just to go back to the desert, biblical metaphors, that's the story of great migration right there, the Old Testament.

The question of receiving the immigrant is an ethical issue that becomes a political issue.