I don't know why women would think they would be underrepresented in that 40 per cent, and I do not know why they think they would be underrepresented in that 60 per cent either. Because, any community that has their traditional leader in the area, one would expect that, among the people, they would want to ensure that this committee, that 60%, is properly representative.

The engagements with the International Investment Council have developed in a very interesting way. It is, again, the point I raised at the beginning.

I think the critical point, really, is that we need to focus black economic empowerment more on the creation of new wealth rather than on these big deals that have been characteristic of this process in the past, of people going to banks, borrowing a lot of money, buying this and when the shares don't perform very well, the shares go back to the banks, because there's other people who own this anyway. I think we need to re-focus it so that it really does impact on growth, new investment, new employment and a general, better spread of wealth in South Africa.

We can't treat the matter of black economic empowerment as just the redistribution of existing wealth. It really has to focus on new investment, on growth, on development of employment and so on and so on.

We are improving the entirety of the system. You have got to make the grants available.

Gloom and despondency have never defeated adversity. Trying times need courage and resilience. Our strength as a people is not tested during the best of times.

You might indeed be able to provide this money that people need to start a business, but can they run a business? This new consolidated agency [National Empowerment Fund] focuses on that matter of preparing people so that they can run business successfully.