If you look at music, you see theme, variation, you see symmetry, asymmetry, you see structure, and these are related to skills in the real world.

And then adds with a laugh, 'but in retrospect I think he may have been more sophisticated than we were.'

In the early 1970s. 1971, '72. The rooms were closing down, record labels weren't signing acoustic acts any more. Although they had been pretty much been getting out of that for some time before that.

Most of what I listen to now is mainstream jazz from 1935 right up to and including early bebop and cool jazz.

My uncle and my grandfather both worked in the Brooklyn Navy Yard.

I'm a very, very stubborn man.

I cut myself off from the mainstream of jazz. It stood me in good stead later on, as a musician.