Some kinds of activists are more willing to try stuff out, see if works and think on their feet, but some of the people who are working on [change] find that very difficult: They've been schooled into thinking you have to come up with the perfect plan in advance. It has become a bit technocratic.

What you don't do is just say, "I've got all the ideas and all the knowledge, and listen to me."

In the end, that's a blind alley - we have to get back to being able to think on our feet and react.

Activists can get very preachy about things. It's more about understanding people's own experiences and tapping into them.

Often we're having an argument with something imaginary - a fixed idea of the "enemy" and the good. We need to get beyond that and actually develop a deep curiosity about people and systems and understand them better.

People think there's a single solution to complex problems, and the solution is often making an enemy of a group of people - pulling back and rejecting the other.

Lots of people in the open system are very determined to try and strengthen evidence-based policy.